Proms 2017: Judith Weir – In the Land of Uz (World Première)

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Charlie Been

Why in Job’s name should it be important how many women are commissioned to write new works? Even more, why should there be any attempt to inflate that number for non-musical reasons? Who are the women – of equal stature and accomlishment (or lack thereof) to the men so commissioned – who have been omitted? Should this socially engineered equality extend to solists, orchestral desks, and so on (presumably reversing the widespread female dominance of orchestral strings)? Should there be more black and other ethnic minority composers/solists/orchestral desks, before and beyond assessments of musical skill and accomplishment? Gay men — presumably there are far too many of them, but should there be more gay women, more transsexuals?

Steven

I would be interested, as somewhat of an outsider, if you could give a few examples of where talented female composers have been sidelined because of their gender?

Ugolino the magnificient

If you’re unable to name “extremely talented women composers”, how do you back up your argument, if not with general assumptions ?

Steven

But, without evidence, and with the growing numbers of celebrated female composers, how is it possible to conclude that they are neglected because of their sex? One could, I’m sure, find many worthy male composers who don’t get enough attention. I’d need something less feeble than unevidenced ‘creative myopia’ to believe there’s a systemic problem.

Barry

Okay, how about ensuring a respresenation of composers who didn’t go to a specialist music school/ public school/come from an affluent background? A disproportionate number of successful UK composers of the younger generation fall into these three.
As with the women composers issue I’d argue that it would be ridiculous to get the quota right. Far better to tackle the underlying reasons on why the above is the case. In the case of privelidged backgrounds, this goes back to government Education policies from the early 80s. Get that right, and you’ll start to redress the balance.

Barry

Forgive me:I wasn’t particularly clear, but I said it would be ridiculous attempt to get the quota right, so means tests prior to commissioning composers would be absurd, and on par with commissioning composers on the basis of gender. I was drawing a parallel between the two things.
Keep gender, or whatever else out of it. Go for merit, and vigorously attack the route cause of why there are less male dancers, female composers, financially diadvantaged etc.You’ll end up with a more even balance in the end.

ps.Specialist music schools are fine, but they (unlike the German Hochschule system) are fee paying.

Steven

No, I don’t feel that. I feel that there are simply more male composers than female composers. But what does it matter what I or you ‘feel’, anyway? The question is whether it’s true. If it’s not, we are arbitrarily preferencing some female composers on the basis of their sex.

Steven

Yes — and I don’t mean to go round in circles — but you would surely only have a problem with under-representation if it were because of gender preference ? If it’s simply that fewer women, for whatever benign reason, go on to become composers, then there’s really no issue.

Chris L

In Steven’s defence, and the spirit of evenhandedness, if, say, the composers in a hypothetical Group A (who all happen to be female) have written 1 million works, and those in hypothetical Group B (who all happen to be male) have written 4 million works, then, provided that those figures truly represent all the works that they’ve ever wanted to write, been encouraged to write, etc., a 20/80 split doesn’t seem unreasonable on its face. However, that said, until it can be proved (and, like you say, how would one even begin to go about proving it?) that the 1 million are just as much in the public eye as the 4 million, then such representation can’t possibly be shown to be genuinely proportional. Like I said, conjecture, not evidence.

Barry

Specialist, as in Purcell School, YMS etc. These are pre-Conservatoire and fee paying. To be fair, scholarships are available in some instances.

I adjudicated a composition competition once, and gave the first prize to a composer who *happened to be* female. Had I not done so on the basis of gender it would have been despicable.
of course, confidence is sometimes an issue with composers, but this is not necessarily exclusive to female.

Charlie

All places at the Purcell School, other major specialist music schools, and junior departments, are means tested, and supported by the government’s Music and Dance Scheme, meaning very few students actually pay the full fee, with many attending free of charge. There are no merit based scholarships ‘in some circumstances’ as you suggest.

I have always wondered what gives some men the audacity to state factual errors so confidently, especially in arguments against women and their oppression.

Anyway, in my humble opinion some of the most exciting composers alive, e.g. Tandy Davies, Chaya Czernowin, Unsuk Chin, Rebecca Saunders, Anna Meredith etc etc were woefully neglected in the Proms this year, especially considering the lack of musical diversity in the new music this year..

Barry

For a more cogent argument than mine, or anything else on here regarding this area please see “Inspiring Women in Music : Zoe Martlew” available on BBCRadio3 iplayer. It makes for a bracing 15minutes listen.
Gill Graham, of Music Sales is also very level headed here.

Chris L

Charlie Been, Ugolino the magnificient and Steven, when asked for evidence (stats, names, etc.) to back up his position, Simon provided it, but I’ve yet to see anything beyond conjecture from you in your efforts to cast reasonable doubt on it. The Devil seriously needs to consider hiring some different advocates, because it appears that none of you can cross-examine for toffee.

I also have yet to see any female commentators rushing to back you up, and a quick glance across at the pop music sphere is all that is required to demonstrate why: there, female composers (because that, in the broad sense, is what songwriters are) share much more proportionate billing with their male counterparts, and, to continue the analogy, the notion that this results from some kind of positive discrimination would be summarily laughed out of court.

Why, then, is it OK to posit such an argument when it comes to “serious” composition? Particularly when those voicing it seemingly have nothing to offer on this post’s principal subject-matter, i.e. the appreciation of Weir’s new piece?

Chris L

this post’s principal subject-matter, i.e. the appreciation of Weir’s new piece

To wit: on first listening, its treatment of its source material was more nuanced and equivocal than I was expecting after reading your description, and I enjoyed the quirkiness of some of the scoring (I’d like to hear more of that soprano-sax-plus-organ texture!), but I must confess that I didn’t exactly find it gripping, and I agree with you that one is unlikely to glean any more insight into that material from a 10th or even 100th listening.

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